danieldwilliam: (Default)
[personal profile] danieldwilliam

I find myself on the horns of a dilemma.

I’m trying to set up a programme of speakers for the 2013 Edinburgh Democracy User Group In the Pub meetings. One of our decisions at the planning meeting for this was to invite all the major political parties to send a speaker to talk to us about their parties core values and how they make decisions internally.

My working definition of “major” is any British party that holds a seat at the European, Westminster or Holyrood Parliaments. I’ve excluding Welsh and Northern Irish parties on the grounds of logistics, although if anyone can find a Plaid Cymru member in Edinburgh I’d be delighted to buy them a pint of Brains.

So, I’ve invited Conservative, Labour, SNP, Lib Dem, Green, Respect and UKIP speakers.

It’s not that I’m not happy to have speakers from other parties. I’d be delighted but my first objective is to invite the major parties and I wanted a rule of thumb to apply when I said I was going to spend time trying to get a speaker from X party but not as much time trying to get a speaker from Y party.

The problem is, my definition of major includes the BNP. They currently hold two seats at the European Parliament.

I’m genuinely in two minds about inviting them to speak. On the grounds that they have a democratic mandate should we engage with them. Should we deny them a platform because they are anti-democratic (and are they anti-democratic?)  Are we wiser if we know our enemy or is a fool’s errand to give them a platform?

Suggestions from the floor welcome.

Date: 2012-10-09 01:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
If you're looking for the most democratic outcome, or the one that explores democracy most deeply, get the user group to vote and go with a majority.

Date: 2012-10-09 01:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yes, but I’m wondering also about my own position.

Date: 2012-10-09 01:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
I can't tell you the answer but I can share my position for what it's worth.

My intellectual position, I think, would be that if I'd made a rule then I would have to stick to it consistently. I wouldn't be able to argue to myself that anything else is democratic.

My emotional position would be that the BNP are fully human.

Date: 2012-10-09 02:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
I hear you on the rules.

Whilst I agree that the BNP are fully human I’m not convinced that that puts me under any obligation to have any dealings with them.

(To be clear, that is not convinced = not certain either way but open to persuasion or facilitation of thinking rather than not convinced = a euphemism for I am right.)

Date: 2012-10-09 02:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
I don't think it puts you under an obligation. But to me it is a compelling argument for being open to conversation rather than closed to it. See comments passim about best how to support and help conversations. Also see all known writing by Jonathan Haidt.

(On a similar note, having had the experience of becoming entangled with an EDL march, I would take steps to ensure an alcohol-free environment if I were going to do this.)

Date: 2012-10-09 02:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yeah there is a lot to be said for being open to the conversation.

Good call on the alcohol point.

That does, very genuinely, present me with a logisitical difficulty, in that I have no budget but can get free space at a pub in exchange for us buying drinks.

Date: 2012-10-09 02:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
I do completely get that - it occurred to me as I was writing - but I think it's worth giving it your best possible shot. Could you get a similar deal in a coffee bar, one night only? They might be glad of the business if it's early in the week.

Date: 2012-10-09 02:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
I’m sure it’s not an insurmountable problem and a coffee shop would be a good venue.

I’ll ask around and see if anyone knows of one.

Date: 2012-10-09 02:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
Here's today's example of Haidt saying it better (albeit at greater length) than I.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
Interesting to see that Haidt acknowledges the change in position of American society on gay marriage, and puts that down not to better, more persausive arguments, but to a change in the culture - very encouraging stuff.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
I entirely agree with him that the value of reason in changing minds is very, very low.

In my experience, the only useful way to open minds is through human connection, which is hard. (Jeez. It's hard with people we love, never mind our political enemies.)

I don't know about culture change. I suspect that there is a huge factor in that time has passed and a generation of people has grown up with the idea that gay relationships are normal. But I couldn't say what contributed to that change, and in particular whether it is entirely emergent or whether it can be nurtured through intervention. (I know about the seatbelt legislation, but don't know how far such things can be generalised.)

(edited for mistyped words)
Edited Date: 2012-10-09 03:21 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-10-09 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
I think growing up in an environment where gay people are shown as being normal, open, and accepted parts of society makes it less likely that they will frighten your elephant. And I love the fact that I'm somewhere in a middle generation on this, somewhere between Turing and Tatchel in terms of the normalacy of homosexuality.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
Not with you on a Turing - Tatchell continuum - both seem to find / have found homosexuality entirely normal.

Date: 2012-10-10 02:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
I was thinking of society's view of homosexuals, rather than their own self-image. Turing was hounded to death before I was born, and Tatchell was operating as an openly gay politician in my early adulthood - so I've been able to watch that process of acceptance by society as it evolves.

Date: 2012-10-10 02:44 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-10-09 07:24 pm (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
If they were elected to a parliament, would you feel that they should have time to speak at it?

Date: 2012-10-09 08:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
I do. I'm with Voltaire on this. I also think that we should not design our constitution to advantage or disadvantage particular parties or view points. (Although, I've never lived in a country with a history of extremist governments.)

Also, it's our bloody stupid fault if we elect fascists. So we should be careful.

And that's part of the underlying reasoning for my major parties heuristic. The parties on List A got elected to speak & vote in a parliament. Those on List B, didn't.

The other part being logistical but f4f3 is going to sort that out for me.

Date: 2012-10-09 01:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
More to follow, but my emotional response is that I wouldn't come.

Date: 2012-10-09 02:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
That’s a firm and helpful position. I’ll look forward to your expansion in due course.

Date: 2012-10-09 02:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
I'd lead with asking what the purpose of this meeting is.

"to invite all the major political parties to send a speaker to talk to us about their parties core values and how they make decisions internally."

So, first of all, your definition does not require you to invite the BNP - you've already excluded 7 parties who are more "major" than they are (including the 4th biggest in Westminster) on purely arbitary grounds. This does not seem to be causing you much of a problem, despite all of the Irish parties having representatives within 50 miles of Scotland, and the BNP being only represented 500 miles away. Belfast, as the Fun Boy Three liked to remind us, is only half an hour away.

I am honsetly at a loss to see why you would invite the BNP and not the Irish Parties - a call to any of our universities would get you members of most of the parties.

That's my direct answer to you - your method of selection is flawed, possibly on grounds of race.

Given that your criteria is not "major" party, it's "mainland" party, what do you think the BNP will bring to the discussion? You aren't in a position of dispensing natural justice to them, and I can't see that excluding them does them any form of disservice higher than that easily done to the Irish and Welsh parties, who, IMHO, have a much more interesting story to tell.

Leaving that aside, and to slightly expand on my original response - "Ah widnae go". I consider the BNP racist by definition, and do not want to hear what they have to say. Nothing to do with not giving them a platform, or denying them a right to speak, or having them banned, I'm just not interested in hearing them speak, and would boycott any event that they were part of, or, as the parties in Scotland did at the Glasgow count, refuse to be on a platform with them.

I'm not going to give you advice on what you should do. This is a matter of conscience, and you may not share my views. If I were organising the event, I wouldn't invite them. This is an extension of my personal decision not to have anything to do with them. You might feel that you have a higher cause to serve in deciding. And while I'd disagree with that, I'd obviously respect your decision. Possibly from the crowd outside, exercising our freedom of speech to barrack some fascists.
Edited Date: 2012-10-09 02:48 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-10-09 03:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
I’m more than happy to invite the DUP or Sein Fein or Plaid Cymru if I can track down a reasonably authoratative member who is prepared to speak.

What I’m not prepared to do is spend a significant amount of my time tracking down a speaker from a party without a clear and easy to find party structure in Edinburgh in the first instance when I have much easier contacts to make.

If you think that finding a member of the DUP or Sein Fein is going to be that easy I look forward to you telling me that you’ve arranged such a speaker.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
Not something I'm going to do from a work PC, but I'll dig around on the respective party websites.

Do the BNP really have a party structure in Edinburgh?

Date: 2012-10-09 03:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yes, they appear to. I saw more BNP rosettes at the Lothians count for the last Holyrood election than I saw Greens, Lib Dems or UKIP and IIRC they out polled UKIP by about 150 votes. That’s the same UKIP who polled nearly a million votes in the last Westminster general election and are arguably the UK’s fourth political party.

So, whether they have a party structure or not I’m not sure. Evidence suggests they might well do and they certainly have candidates and sufficient local support to put up scrutineers.

The polled even better in Glasgow and Central Scotland.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
That’s a useful suggestion.

I’ll punt them something throught the contact form when I’m home.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
It's a really interesting space. This is the one I'd be most likely to try hard to attend, were I here.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
Probably not the only time we'd find ourselves on opposite sides of the barricades.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
I see what you did there.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
My elephant is restless.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
The weather in Leningrad is most inclement at this time of year.

Date: 2012-10-09 03:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
The old bird never flies far from the nest.

Date: 2012-10-09 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
If I were engaged in your work, I would be intensely curious about what leads people towards the BNP, and I can't think of any other way to explore that except through conversation. This, however, is a different point from whether this is the right medium for that exploration.

Date: 2012-10-09 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yes.

For many reasons. Including...

I've never heard what they have to say. Difficult to judge if they are beyond the pale until I've heard them.

I'm not sure I have any special privilege to decide for other people what is or isn't acceptable speech.

There must be something about them that appeals to people. What are they offering that people don't feel they are getting elsewhere.

If I don't understand their values how can I persuade them that they can promote their values without their brusque policies.


I note that pretty much literally bombing them into the Stone Age didn't appear to put them all off. So what will make them no longer a threat.

But DUGIP may not be the right forum.

Date: 2012-10-09 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
Yes to all of this. Because (i) DUGIP is owned by all its members and (ii) your ability to control the container for the conversation may be compromised and (iii) it might intrinsically be the wrong container.

Date: 2012-10-09 07:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
We've already had one person say that if the BNP were invited they would consider resigning from the group.

Date: 2012-10-09 07:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
How can you take a comprehensive sounding about who's for and against? Talk about it at the end of a meeting?

Date: 2012-10-09 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
There are a few forums to engage in that conversation.

And plenty of time to have the conversation.

Date: 2012-10-09 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
True. And the conversation needs to be between people, not factions.

Date: 2012-10-09 08:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Would that we had numbers enough for factions.

But you're right.

Not sure how to cultivate that TBH.

Date: 2012-10-10 07:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
The more I reflect on this thread, the more I think that now is not the time to make the decision. You don't have to arrange all the sessions now. Over the next few months, you will get to know the user group better and you will understand how the sessions work in practice. Let the conversation evolve.

Put differently, this is not a theoretical problem. It is a practical one, and as such can only be solved in practice.

Date: 2012-10-10 08:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yes, thinking about this overnight, I agree.

Date: 2012-10-09 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
The Facebook forum for starters, after the meetings over the next few months, email, here.

None of them ideal perhaps. Turns out the BNP are a trump issue. For some.

Date: 2012-10-09 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alitheapipkin.livejournal.com
I can see intellectual arguments for either position, it does however occur to me that no-one much else has mentioned practical concerns (aside from the alcohol issue).

What would you hope to get out of having a BNP speaker were you to invite one? And how likely is your aim to be successful taking into account your audience, venue etc?

If the people who come to the meeting and the speaker can have a proper conversation as [livejournal.com profile] widgetfox is interested in, then you have a decision to make according to your conscience. If however, between your audience and your venue, all that is likely to happen is a shouting match, which may turn ugly, I think the idea is pointless regardless of anyone's feelings on the rights or wrongs of giving them a platform.

Date: 2012-10-09 08:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
That is a wise and useful comment.

Thank you.

Date: 2012-10-10 04:47 pm (UTC)
matgb: Artwork of 19th century upper class anarchist, text: MatGB (Default)
From: [personal profile] matgb
You have a problem with it, in that some people value free speech more'n anything else, and other think they're beyond the pale and free association kicks in.

There are lots or organisations that don't want to associate with organisations that associate with the BNP.

It's a shame it's 2013, if you waited till 2014, problem solved, I suspect Labour turnout wont be so low next time as to let them in again, even if they hadn't collapsed electorally and internally.

Date: 2012-10-11 08:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Indeed – the current programme has probably got sufficient slots allocated to it with just those parties holding seats at Holyrood to postpone the practicalities of hosting the BNP until 2014.

As widgetfox suggests above – I’m not sure that DUGIP is the right forum, given the practical difficulties of having a useful conversation.

Date: 2012-10-10 06:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cheekbones3.livejournal.com
Invite them, better that everyone's views are heard rather than just the mainstream ones, all the better to weed out the stupid ones.

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