Democracy Users in the Pub

[danieldwilliam]

I was as the first regular monthly meeting this year of the Edinburgh reform group last night.

It was good to see folk again. I’ve not been able to make the last few meetings.

I think we’ve come up with a plan for how to organise the group so that it’s forward facing and enjoyable and social and provides a support structure for people who want to be more or less active in the Reform movement.

As usual lots of interesting chat.  I got to try out what I think if going to be my favourite question of the referendum.

What are the issues that you will most important when making your decision about how to vote? What aspect of society would independence or the retention of the Union have to have a really positive affect on to sway your vote?

A couple of the answers really got me thinking.

First up – not a lot, independence won’t make much of a difference.

What if that’s true and we spend a lot of effort thinking about how different systems of government and conclude that fundamentally this question doesn’t make much difference.  That’s a bit of a worry for politicians on both sides of the question.

Secondly – what to do with the Scottish diaspora?  Which system of government would be most welcoming of the many people who consider themselves to have some Scottish connection.

Not before the referendum as a discussion on the franchise but afterwards. How do we encourage people to return? Do we want them to return? Do they have a right to return?

Feeling quite buoyed up by it all.

Comments

[andrewducker]

Personally, I wouldn't encourage people to return, but if they choose to live in Scotland then I'd welcome them, help them settle in, and get them into work as fast as possible :->

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Why would you not encourage people to return?

[andrewducker]

I don't think we need to go out and tell people "Move to Scotland, it's awesome!". If people choose to, then fine, but I don't feel the need to get out there and sell it to them.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

The Scottish Government estimates some 1.3m native born Scots living abroad, about half of them in England and between 28m and 40m people claiming Scots ancestry somewhere in the world, a plurality in the USA.

I’m trying to imagine what things would be like if a million extra people tried to come and live here in the years following independence. Not that I’m expecting it to happen.

[andrewducker]

Well, it would push housing prices up :->

I doubt it will happen either. Unless an independent Scotland is stonkingly successful I can't see it being a beacon for ex-pats.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

The effect on house prices would be enough to pump and dump the economy just on its own.

If I were a Lex Luther type I might just try it.

I think we might see a few "return" mainly Scots living in England but I think, people have jobs and families and "home" is only a short train ride away.

[andrewducker]

I think you're more likely to attract immigrants. I don't see much likelihood of people caring which country they live in unless big differences evolve in healthcare, education, etc.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Beyond a few people who are inspired by the razzamazz to move home I think you are correct.

No rush at least, pehaps a trickle in either direction as differences emerge between the two countries.

[fearmeforiampink]

Is the reform group associated with any of the national reform organisations? What's been working well and not so well for you? It's more one of my colleague's areas than mine, but we've been wanting to do more with our Unlock Democracy local groups.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

We’re associated loosely with both ERS and UD in that we maintain contacts and friendly relations with both organisations and would look to them for leadership on campaigns.

I guess we’d feel pretty irritated too if there turned out to be other formally constituted ERS or UD groups in our area and we didn’t know.

What’s been working well has been keeping a nucleus of the old Yes to Fairer Votes campaign team meeting up regularly.

What’s not worked so well (until now) is finding a way to shift the focus from being a YTFV old boys club to being a group that is currently active and vital.

Happy to chat more to you or to your colleague – any time.

I’ll punt over my contact details by PM.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

For question one, it would be about the priorities of a Scottish Government. I'll vote for independence if I think that will mean more money invested in education, health, and care for the vulnerable. You'll note that none of these specify a particular party to be in power, just a change of emphasise.

For the second, of course Scots have a right to return, if they're living in England or the EU, were born here, or brought up here (basically if we could put you in the Scotland team then in you come). And if there isn't a right for those of more distant Scottish descent, then at least there should be an oportunity for them to move here. Scotland is comparitively empty - we need immigrants. Personally, I'd be happiest if they moved to the Highlands and Argyll, where we really are short of workers (and, yes, short of jobs) but the population of Glasgow has fallen by a fair bit over the last 60 years - I'm sure we could fit in a few hundred thousand. And Edinburgh is pretty much dead except for the Festival, isn't it?
How to encourage them back? Let them know that they're welcome. I'm also all for relaxing visa conditions for students staying on in Scotland afer their degrees (and for disqualifying Bus Station U/Glasgow Tech/Caledonian University from having ANY overseas students - kidding, honestly.

[andrewducker]

The population of Scotland seems pretty stable over the last 50 years:
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/scotlands-population-2008-the-registrar-generals-annual-review-of-demographic-trends-154th-edition/j1103004.htm

Got anything on Glasgow falling a lot?

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

Here's some nice stuff from Glasgow City Council:

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/AboutGlasgow/Factsheets/Glasgow/Population.htm

The table at the bottom shows Glasgow's population going from 1.1 million in 1951 to 584k in 2008. Looks like it's picked up at about 3% a year since then.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

0.3% - typo!

[andrewducker]

Good Lord, that _is_ a massive drop. Thanks for that!

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Looking at that link I think there's been a drift from Dundee to Not Dundee over the last ten years.

My belief is that over the longer term people have moved from the Highlands and Island to the cities. Certainly I get the impression that lots of places in the H&I would welcome a few hundred enterprising types arriving.

According to the Oracle of Wiki Glasgow had a population of 1.1 million in the 1950's and now has a population 600k.

I think quite a lot of the dense slum housing was knocked down during the 1960's but I guess if you have a city that used to twice the people in it there might be room for a few hundred thousand Returning Scots.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

Me point exactly - though you might have to rebuild the slums of the Gorbals, Springburn and Townhead to fit them in...

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Perhaps not new build slums.

One might find it easier to slightly increase the density of the central belt.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

I think your answer to Q1 has something in common with an indepedent Scotland would vote for a government that is in accord with the social democratic tendency of the Scots.

It would cost less than £50m to write to each Ancestral Scot and invite them to apply for citizenship.

Australia, from time to time, has put location restrictions on immigration. If we were swamped with applicants we could always restrict their visas to Shetland and Lewis and Harris.

Frankly, even during the Festival not much happens here. Place is a deadend, I don't know why anyone bothers coming.