danieldwilliam: (electoral reform)
[personal profile] danieldwilliam
Enquiries have been made about my ideology. Am I ideologically pure? It strikes me as a very sixties sort of question to ask. But here goes.


First and foremost I’m a pragmatist.

What works? Let’s do that then.

This includes working with people as they are, not as we would wish them to be.

I also think things are probably pretty complicated. Whatever the question, I’m certainly that the answer is that it is probably more complicated than it first appears.

Secondly, I’m an ideological non-purest. I think if you could get the entire population to agree to a particular ideology and agree to virulently brainwash themselves and all their offspring then that might work. But that’s not going to happen so we have to find a way to deal with significant differences of opinion about what the Good Life is and how to move our society to a situation where more of us can live the Good Life. Or A Good Life – other Lives are available.

I’m a dynamic equilibriumist. I don’t think we can create a perfect economic and political set up that will endure for all time. Things change, people change, technology changes. Attempts to permanently fix the system end up concentrating power in the hands of those most willing and able to game the existing system. I think we need a system that is in constant revolution. Where things change constantly but in such a way that each change triggers a counter move that keeps the balance of power and influence approximately where we would like it to be.

So what do we do with complex situations, that are constantly changing and where opinions differ on both the best way to effect a solution and what the best solution is? So called wicked problems. Mmmh, tricky. Probably part of the answer is about ensuring people are able to solve the problems that appear in front of them.

I’m a democratic decentralist. I think most Western democracies don’t work as well as they could. Ours is a particularly bad example of weak democratic institutions, weak participation and centralisation of power far beyond what is needed for effective large group actions.

I’m very sceptical about the concentration of power in either state or private hands.

So I’m favour of significant constitutional structural change with a different electoral system, an elected and more powerful revising chamber, a reduction of the power of the Prime Minister and more devolution. I’d prefer to see much more powerful local government and for local government to start at a much finer level of community, with decisions taken much closer to the people affected.

I’d also favour a change in our democratic process towards a more direct, participative and deliberative way of reaching decisions.

Basically, representative democracy as we currently operate it takes power and decisions away from people. I’d like to move them closer. I want politics to be something that people do on a daily basis rather than something that is done to them.

This is the part of our politics that currently most excites me. It’s why I’m a member of Unlock Democracy and the Electoral Reform Society and why I’m a political activist in the way I am.

I think we’ll get a better understanding of what works if we do our politics better. Quality as defined by the user.


It was through reading the Culture novels of Iain M Banks that I twigged to the idea that left-wing politics would be a lot easier if we were all really rich and if the production of basic necessities could sit in the hands of ordinary people unmediated by concentrations of capital in either state or private hands. It’s easier to be good if everyone around you is rich and has control over their own lives. The threat of being on the wrong side of absolute scarcity or even relative scarcity seems to me to the primary driver of most conflict in the world.

So I’m in favour of finding ways to remove human labour from production and in favour of finding ways to place control of production in to the hands of whoever has the gumption to pick up the tools. Whatever the question is I think the answer is likely to involve doing it with robots. We live in the science fictional future of our grandparents and in the science fictional past of our grandchildren. I think science and technology are a potent force for political as well as economic change. I don’t mean the ability of the internet to connect us politically. I am thinking more of the political change that comes from being able to produce abundance locally.

I am a liberal. I’m more or less in favour of not telling other people what’s good for them and letting people get on and work out their own lives in a way that suits them. I also think that individuals have rights and these rights ought to be firmly protected and promoted.

I am in favour of the group intervening to ensure that each individual has a fair go at making the best of themselves. I’m in favour of the group pooling risks so that we can all enjoy a life free the anxiety that really bad things might happen to us. I include in those risks the risk of being born to parents who were stupid, feckless or lazy, or who were unlucky, or who were ground down by the oppression of the capitalist system. So, I’m in favour of relatively high levels of taxation to fund high quality education and health services and to provide social security. In this I’m a fairly standard social democrat. Everyone puts in, everyone takes out.

There seems to me to be a balance to be struck between the individual and the community. I don’t know where this balance ought to rest in practise. I’m more in favour of getting the process that determines where the balance lies right.

I’m not a libertarian. I am generally sceptical of the “right” of other people to stick their noses into my business or my right to stick my nose in to the business of other people. I do think the rights of individuals need to be balanced against each other and also with group, collective or community rights. I also think, that economics is not the best mechanism for mediating these conflicts of rights. Also, the more I think about a non-state libertarian set up the more Ronald Choase tells me we would have to re-invent the state.

I’d like to be an anarchist but I fear that if the state didn’t exist it would be necessary to invent it in order to prevent the wrong people doing so.

So I turn out to be a pragmatic liberal decentralist social democrat Banksian. I’m not sure that is an ideology.

Date: 2013-04-18 12:21 pm (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
Close enough to mine that I can't really find much to quibble about!

Edit: I could quibble because I don't like the word "rights", as it tends to be understood differently by different groups of people. And, personally, I'd be more specific about where the line comes between "putting your nose into other people's business" and "exerting standards on people's businesses". But, y'know, quibbling.
Edited Date: 2013-04-18 12:23 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-04-18 12:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Rights is a problematic word.

With my American Legal Realist hat on I tend to see rights as either claim rights, i.e. statements of political positions or predictions about what courts will do.

But it’s a word which is commonly understood to mean more or less what I mean by it. Or perhaps commonly misunderstood but I’ll cope.

Date: 2013-04-18 01:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] f4f3.livejournal.com
As a pragmatist, I think that your being a Social Democrat is the most important part of your make up, and the others are how you want to function inside that social democracy. A few decades ago you (and I) would have been technocrats. I wanted to be a technocrat when I was growing up, but it was too oily. I had to wait these decades for the technology to reach Hari Seldon levels, when I could work with computer models instead of dangerously explodey things.
I think that's why I like Marx (and, like Marx, why I don't like Marxists). Ownership of the means of production is where it's at, Matt. Cornering the means of production, and slicing off the surplus value of labour is a clear model of how to concentrate resources in ever fewer hands, while still keeping the peons in peanuts.
Until we all have access to 3D printers the masses will never be free. So that's about 18 months, then.

Date: 2013-04-18 02:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
3D printers for the win!

I think there are two bits to the political effect of politics. One is the effect from everybody being have lots of good cheap stuff and plenty of time. The other is the ability to withdraw from society or at least withhold your labour.

I’m wondering how the Miners’ Strike would have turned out if the miners had had access to the following.

3D printers.

3D printer feedstock that could be made the sort of cellulose material commonly lying about by some form of biological agent.

A biological agent that also turned cellulose into a basic food stuff.

Solar panels or wind turbines to provide some energy.

They could have held out for as long as they were prepared to eat dull food.

Of course, so could all the people who were now much less dependent on them digging up the coal.

Date: 2013-04-18 03:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yeah, I can definitely see myself as a 1960’s NHS-bespecktacled technocrat.

There’s a well known picture of Wilson giving his white hot heat of a technical revolution speech with a guy who looks suspciciously like my dad (but isn’t I think) sitting behind him.

Better living through technology.



I am genuinely uncertain whether the social or the democrat is the most important part. Do we get better democracy if we have the egality and the opportunity and the mass and individual security we get through the social bit or does better democracy lead to the provision of the egalitarian and opporitity rich future because that’s the fairest deal and you get a fair deal with more democracy. Don’t know. Not sure it matter much as both at the same time seems to be the way forward.

Also, I am a democrat. I think democracy is the right political system regardless of what it turns up by way of political economy.

Date: 2013-04-18 03:11 pm (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
The pragmatic, nice, liberalism is the important part.

Because if you know that people are different, and thus that no single direction will suit everyone, and do not wish to impose your views on others, but wish to protect those that are hurt by individuals or society, then social democracy flows naturally from that.

Date: 2013-04-18 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
3D printers are only 18 motnhs away and have been for 18 months. They will continue to be only 18 months away until we have fussion reactors to run them.


Date: 2013-04-18 02:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Geeky maths point of view -- you might want to think of a different term for "dynamic equilibriumist".

Solutions which find an optimal equilibrium which endures in a dynamic system is my bread and butter. I see what you're trying to say but that phrase made me think "oh, that's the kind of problem which can easily have a very simple solution." (The solution typically being a differential equation giving a descent direction from the current position within the dynamical system -- I was doing this this morning).

This post is probably irrelevant. (To be absolutely clear, I mean my post is irrelevant not yours).
Edited Date: 2013-04-18 02:22 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-04-18 02:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Far from irrelevent. Thanks for the useful and interesting information.

I was thinking of it from an economics point of view. The idea that markets are constantly trying to get to an equilibrium against a background of changing inputs to the market conditions.

I’ll have a think about a better, more precise way of expressing what I think I meant.

Date: 2013-04-18 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Yes... those dynamic equilibrium economic models often admit quite nice stable solutions which I doubt would transfer to a real "market" situation. You can also find a lot of economists who will foam at the mouth about the concept of equilibrium economics anyway -- the old joke about the economist who sees a £100 note on the floor but doesn't pick it up because the efficient market hypothesis says that in an equilibrium situation someone already has. My knowledge of economics is pretty pop science and from attending the odd seminar in the economics dept many years ago when I was working in a maths dept.

Date: 2013-04-19 08:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
As I’ve become older and wiser I tended more to view economic models as the start of a process of inquiry into why the model doesn’t reflect reality.

I think in the gap between how people ought to behave and how people actually do behave there lies some interesting economics.

I'm very much a micro-economist and I tend towards the smaller end of the micro.

Date: 2013-04-22 02:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
You mean the land where the experimental economists live? I love those experiments... they really do get my interest.

Date: 2013-04-22 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
There ought to be a whole continent where experimental economists live and when they’ve worked out what’s going on they can come back.

Alas too often the main interest in the interesting times that the Chinese use to curse people.

One or two of the MMORPG games have consultant economists and one of them was posting a few interesting observations from watching how the economies in-game operated but I think he got distracted by the economy of Greece exploding.

Date: 2013-04-22 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Heh... a whole continent where the only form of income is money given to each other as rewards for participation in abstract experiments about co-operation trust etc... I wonder if it would work.

I believe Eve Online has a chief economist: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8545268.stm

There are some pretty good (if sci-fi-ised) descriptions of MMORPG economics in Cory Doctorow's "For the Win" and one of Charles Stross's novels (possibly Halting State).

Date: 2013-04-22 05:18 pm (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
Valve have one too:
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/economics/
(Which is the one I think that Dan is referring to)

Date: 2013-04-23 08:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
That's the fellow.

Not seen much from him on on-line economics recently.

Date: 2013-04-23 08:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Interesting... the valve economist is essentially dealing with optimising the interactions between the real world economy and the valve games. As I understand it the Eve economist mainly tries to keep the eve economy ticking over which is largely (though not entirely) insulated from the real world economy. (Limited real money purchases).

Date: 2013-04-24 08:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yeah – there’s a guy in my office who is (was) quite involved in Eve and we’ve just been discussing how the in-game economy has limited leakage to out of game economy.

Date: 2013-04-23 08:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
It’s gotta be worth a go. Australia looks pretty empty.

I’ve not read “For The Win” I’ll add it to my list of books to read. I quite like Doctorow when I’m in the mood for his evervescence.

I have read “Halting State”.

The other sci-fi book which involves the economics of MMORP’s is “REAMDE” by Neil Stephenson. There’s quite a lot of detail about how the game owners tried to integrate the in game economy with the “real” economy.

Date: 2013-04-23 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
I've heard good things about REAMDE but was put off NS by Cryptonomicon.

Date: 2013-04-24 07:53 am (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
Oddly, I was put off NS by Snow Crash, liked Diamond Age a lot, and then fell in love with Cryptonomicon/Baroque Cycle. I've not picked up REAMDE yet, because I heard it wasn't like those things :->

Date: 2013-04-24 08:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
REAMDE was a fairly standard, good crime caper / terrorist romp. Think a really good Tom Clancy but with jokes. The science fictional element is fairly small. The story could be happening now. It’s mainly concerned with how MMORPG interact, economically and socially and criminally with real life or Real Life. As Charles Stross says, if your contemporary novels don’t involve some science fictional element then they are really 1960’s novels.

It’s not as baroque and as the Baroque Cycle but it’s fairly convoluted.

I really enjoyed it.

Date: 2013-04-24 08:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
See my reply to Mr D on REAMDE. I really enjoyed it.

I really liked Cryptonomicon. I loved the way it was modern near future mundane sci-fi from the 40’s.

What was it about it that put you off?

Date: 2013-04-24 09:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
There were parts of Cryptonomicon I enjoyed and I like your description.
1) The ending... well, nobody likes the ending.
2) The portrayal of Turing... by most accounts he was an exceptionally shy and modest man, he was written as if he was out and pround and extremely camp.
3) Various bits of technology I found implausible -- coding with the caps-lock-as-morse. I mean that's going to look more suspicious than just coding. Breaking a code through an excess of letters in a not-quite-random number generator... it's not impossible (theory tells us) but difficult with modern technology and a large message sample.

Date: 2013-04-24 09:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
THANK YOU I LOVE YOU.

I did not like Cryptonomicon - severely did not like - because of the Turing thing, and I have never been able to get anyone to take me seriously, because cryptography! and Stephenson! and complex narrative!

Date: 2013-04-24 09:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
I'm glad it wasn't just me who found it incongrous. I thought it might be that I'm simply quite attached to Turing as a figure and was being oversensitive about the portrayal.

Date: 2013-04-24 09:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
I found it completely inappropriate and unnecessary. It really did put me off the whole book. And I kept thinking "this is obviously my closed-mindedness" so was very pleased indeed to read your comment.

Date: 2013-04-24 10:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
I’m sorry it ruined it for you. I think I just glossed over the Turing characterisation.

Date: 2013-04-24 10:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Thanks.

I don't know enough about Turing to find a portrayal of him incongruous. I can see that if he were a well known figure then getting him wrong would jar.

I did quite like the ending. I think I may be the only person I know who did. It seemed to make sense to me.

Date: 2013-04-24 11:14 am (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
I liked the ending on my recent rereading.

Date: 2013-04-19 08:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] widgetfox.livejournal.com
This includes working with people as they are, not as we would wish them to be.

This hasn't been my experience in conversation with you?

Date: 2013-04-19 09:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
We are all less than perfect in our way.

Specifically in the areas of applied ideology we’re not able to create a uniform view of the world, a uniform view of the Good Life and a uniform view of what, if anything a particular view of the world implies for the achievement of the Good Life. So in terms of politics and ideology my ideology is that our constitutional framework has to be able to accommodate quite wide variations in opinion rather than being built on the more brittle basis of a one-size fits all view of human nature.

Date: 2013-04-19 02:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rhythmaning.livejournal.com
That's very interesting, but quite a bit to digest.

So I think I'll have to read it again... Later!

Date: 2013-04-19 04:11 pm (UTC)
drplokta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drplokta
But we've already removed nearly all human labour from production, compared with how things were 100 years ago, and it hasn't made us all rich (or at least, it hasn't made us all feel as though we're rich). There can never be a post-scarcity society, because there are too many "positional" goods where you can't just make more so that everyone can have them. We can never give everyone tickets to an intimate Rolling Stones gig, or an operation performed by the best surgeon, or food cooked by the best chef, or a central London penthouse flat with views over the Thames, or a human servant, or a car that's in the 95th percentile of all cars, and so on and so on.

Date: 2013-04-22 08:48 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
I share your view on positional goods and post-scarcity society – there is only one set of best seats in the house. However, it is possible to have really good theatre and opera companies and orchestras and choir and music halls, sports stadia and arenas, swimming pools and velodromes and so on and so on in every large town in the UK.

We can make everywhere a really good place to live with many and varied opportunities so we’re not all trying to cram in to a few penthouses in London with our ticket for the Stones gig. Increasing our actual wealth I think can make it easier to make our society more equal and I think a richer more equal society will have less conflict in it.

Do we feel richer? I guess not compared to everyone else around us but there seems to be less civil strife around compared to the last few occasions when the economy suffered such a significant set back. Fewer wars. It seems easier to do a deal.

Date: 2013-04-22 08:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
There is also the question of our willingness to change ourselves so that positional goods are less important to us and less linked to our sense of self and self-worth.

Date: 2013-04-24 09:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
it hasn't made us all feel as though we're rich

I believe the reason for this is that our feelings of "wealth" come from comparison with our peer group not with some absolute standard of "wealthier than point x". There's experimental evidence to back this up to some extent.

I believe the best statement of the result is:
Happiness is, in western societies, correlated with your wealth related to your associates -- it is not correlated to your absolute wealth with the exception that if your absolute wealth is sufficiently low you cannot find food or shelter this makes you miserable.

If this is correct then no model of production would make us all feel rich.

Date: 2013-04-24 10:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com

No model of production would make us feel rich.


True and then, beyond being able to supply ample basics to everyone, it then become about systems of distribution.

Such systems of distribution, I think, being politically easier to change or to work within if material wealth is abundant.

Date: 2013-04-24 12:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Other things are (or seem) important for me. I'm glad my job is in research science rather than in simply working the fields to produce food (read some stat that at some point in the past, 80% of all labour was directly creating food to survive). My guess is that mechanism hasn't cut the amount of work done but has changed that work to be work which is at a "higher level" and in the end helps out with other things: spread of knowledge, cure of disease etc.

Date: 2013-04-24 12:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danieldwilliam.livejournal.com
Yeah – I definitely value not having to hack my food out of the ground with my bare hands. There is much to be said for indoor work with no heavy lifting.

Also the things that flow from that, like being able to spend most of my time with people with university level educations and watching Brian Cox and Lucy Worsley on the television instead of the local priest.

Date: 2013-04-24 03:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] steer.livejournal.com
Agree!

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