danieldwilliam | Just the Facts Ma'am, Just the Facts

I went to the Seasonal Dialogue last night. I usually really enjoy these. I’ve been going for four years. I find it a good way to think about things with people and mainly a good way to be exposed to the way other people think about things and what they value.

I just wasn’t in the mood last night. So much so that I considered taking myself away for a while.

Partly, I had carried some petty irritation in the room. Partly, I find that I was coming down with something. I was reminded about the connection between the physical reality of my body and the (possibly physical) structure of my mind.

So I found myself in a truculent, tetchy mood. I fidgeted in my chair more than usual. I was a little less respectful of the process and the other people than I usually am. One of the valuable things about the dialogue sessions is that I interact with people’s ideas in a different way from the way I usually do. I’m a lawyer by training, a disputer, a debater and a mooter. The dialogue sessions help me listen to people in way that is not about persuading them or winning a victory but is about learning from them and sharing a collective thinking out loud session. This is good for me.

I think part of the reason why I wasn’t as engaged in the first half of the conversation was that it was about one of the most nebulous topics, the nature of Truth. I would divide the search for Truth into two elements. Firstly, there is the Truth about the physical universe, about how the parts of it are and work, and how they work together. You might describe this as a search for an accurate description of how things are. Just the Facts, ma’am, just the Facts. This is hard enough. The second element is the search for some Truth about (not sure what, something that seems important to some people). I can best describe this as a search for how we ought to be.

How we ought to be I think should be grounded in the physical reality. Mostly it is. However, people tend to reason backwards from their world view to the opinions about physical reality that they choose to accept as Facts.

Then I find lot of the debate about Truth is a difference of opinion on what makes people happy, with much reasoning from the imperfectly understood specific to the not at all understood generality (against a background where we struggle to understand what the Facts are). I think seeking after the Truth is likely to be a fruitless exercise. My answer the question,” Is This All There Is?” Is likely to be, “Um yes, what were you expecting?” If you insist on seeking it out, I’m more than happy to watch you, talk to you about it and hold your coat but I don’t expect to ever find myself thinking “THIS is the Truth”. If I ever did, I’m not I would know what to do with it.

I wonder if the time spent seeking after the Truth would be better spent finding people who tended to agree with you and spend your time with them in a homogenous community. Dull, perhaps, but peaceful.

So I found myself sitting on an uncomfortable seat, in an uncomfortable body, being niggled by the fact I was irritated by my own irritation engaged in an interesting but, for me, possibly fruitless conversation.

Of course, the evening I’m less than averagely willing and able to engage properly is the evening that the one individual who just rubs me up the wrong way turns up. Not sure why but they do. I try not to let it bother me but it did.

Then we moved onto the Pope and I got cross. More later.

Afterwards some of us went to the Scotch Malt Whisky Society. That was nice, although the second beer was a mistake. It was nice to see f4f3. I had been looking forward to seeing him. His comic book on the iPad is very groovy.

Went home, spoke to MLW, had two paracetamol, went to bed.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Yeah, I could tell you were uncomfortable, and I did actually think it was physical as well as mental. Sorry to hear that you're coming down with something.

I share your training and inclination when it comes to debate, and I have to make conscious efforts NOT to try to win arguments in the Circle. Rhetoric is easy to do, and it can look a lot like passion. Passion can also look a lot like prejudice. I've taken the "but what is truth?" argument into the wee small hours with very little light and lots of heat. What pisses me off is when people say "Ah, but your science doesn't really tell us what truth is", and then nod pityingly. When I've done picking their teeth out of my knuckles, I usually try to explain that there are at least two different types of truth, the ones you refer to above.

Sometimes they even mumble agreement.

I think both searches for truth are equally and differently valid. For me, the problem comes when people want or expect their Truth to be everybody's Truth. With science, for the most part (that's another post), everybody's truth is the same. With the meaning of life, not so much, and it can't and shouldn't be.

Yes, I think we agree here. Of course, there's an argument over whether life HAS a meaning, but that's not one for science either.

And, again, I don't think the answer would be the same for everyone.

Look, all this agreement is going to get embarrassing...

What don't we agree on? There must be lots. We can talk about that.

Vast areas of disagreement. Um. Somewhere.

There must be. But my mind's gone blank. Stuff about Scotland?

Nope, I think we've got that covered now.

Oh, my. Other people we don't talk about. Organised religion? I'm not entirely agin, although I do think it's a problematic space.

I saw some heid heidyen from the Catholic Church talking about “Aggressive Atheism” on the news this morning.

As an aggressive atheist myself I’m not sure I’m taking any lectures on aggression from The Holy See however one thing I did have some sympathy with was his concern that making society secular would erode the fabric of society by removing the close links between people that exist in organised religion.

Some sympathy; I think organised religion does have some benefit in bringing people together and secular movements could learn something from churches, secular movements shouldn’t underestimate the desire people have to be part of their community.

It’s why I like the idea of Skeptics in the Pub.

(But also the many other secular organisations that ground people in their community, like political parties, drinking societies, sports clubs, drama associations

I also try not win arguments in the Circle. I try not to get into them. Even in my own head. Not sure how successful I am.

Timing of coming down with something couldn't be worse. I'm flying down to see Lyd tonight so could do with being healthy.

I have an awful feeling it might be kidney stones or some such a thing. I keep getting "shooting pains" in my side. Painful enough to make me wince but not painful enough to make me cry out. Could just be wind.

Ouch, ouch.
Did you watch Deadwood?
Al Swearinger's encounter with a kidney stone still brings tears to my eyes.

Never watched Deadwood.

I'm currently really hoping it's just indigestion or a muscle I pulled drinking beer.

Just the Facts Ma'am, Just the Facts

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